Editing Talk:Fourth Theory

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==icon==
'''I think we need to revert the icon image to its original, the new image isn't nearly as good at least IMO, yet for some reason, it was given the "art improvement tag" despite the picture being far better than many other images which don't get the same treatment. How do you guys feel about it? - AnAnonBoi'''
Why is Buddhist theocracy a faction of classical Eurasianism? I don't understand-Brism
How is Kim Jong-un a theorist of the fourth theory? Has he ever mentioned it? Also the list is becoming more and more into 'recent people who are pro-russia' NGL.

==Do people really think that Fourth Theory is Authoritarian? If so, why?==
> it needs to be to combat liberalism they want a strong state to combat liberalism's strong state they also want to preserve cultural values through that state. dugin explains it in his book.

> Okay, but how come Dugin is against Totalitarianism? (Strong State)

> Dugin considers totalitarianism as a modern phenomenon. [https://www.memri.org/reports/fourth-political-theory-russian-anti-liberal-philosopher-dugin-alternative-liberalism #] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x70z5QWC9qs #]

>But I don’t see why Dugin would want an Authoritarian State and yet it’s aligned with the Authoritarian Left. Say, am I contradicting myself?

> Dugin argues that there will be anarchy if there is no hierarchy. Also you should stop asking questions that are quite obvious.
>kl:dugin has his own definition for totalitarian and is against that but he is hierarchical and believes in authority

==How is Duginism 'personal tendency'? He founded the entire ideology==

*He sure did, but he's still a person tho - [[File:Abrokendoor.png]] [[User:Abrokendoor|Abrokendoor]] ([[User talk:Abrokendoor|talk]])	
**Yeah, but he should really be a sub-ideology, like Mussolinism is to Fascism and Hitlerism is to Nazism etc- [[User:Davhen07| Davhen07]]
*[[File:TheElectricBomb.png]] [[User:TheElectricBomb|TEB]] - I'm glad we're having this conversation. The idea was to displace Dugin to have "Classical Eurasianism" as the sole sub-ideology. The endgoal of Fourth Theory's is to solidate Eurasia. But like Dawhem brought it up, Hitlerism is a sub-ideology to Nazism for good reason–the ideology is not only founded but centered around his beliefs. This is contrary to personal tendencies like Stalinism, because his own ideology Marxism-Leninism was a label that was expanded upon by adherents to the ideology.
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The deeper I look into this, I realize there was a fallacy to my thinking: Fourth Theory was founded by Dugin, and like Hitler or Mussolini, the ideology is solely restricted to him alone, and you could argue that's enough reason he should stay as a sub-ideology.

==dugin and socialism==
This is a no-true Scotsman argument. Dugin bases his beliefs on the conservative revolution. if conservative revolution is a variant of reactionary socialism and dugin is a variant of the conservative revolution and his beliefs came downstream of national bolshevism(I know he is not one right now) then he is a reactionary socialist hence a socialist. The socialists can infight about him all they want but he is still a variant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourgeois_socialism#Monarchical_socialism

on conservative revolution:
They defended an ultra-nationalist form of socialism that took its roots in both Völkisch extremism and nihilistic Kulturpessimismus, rejecting any Western influence on German society: liberalism and democracy, capitalism and Marxism, the bourgeoisie and the proletariat, Christianity and humanism.

Conservative Revolution - Wikipedia

Political scientist Tamir Bar-On has defined the Conservative Revolution as a combination of "German ultra-nationalism, defence of the organic folk community, technological modernity, and socialist revisionism, which perceived the worker and soldier as models for a reborn authoritarian state superseding the egalitarian "decadence" of liberalism, socialism, and traditional conservatism."[22]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Revolution#Front-line_socialism


[[File:Abrokendoor.png]] [[User:Abrokendoor|Abrokendoor]] - Dugin wouldn't even fit in with non-marxist socialists who reject class struggle. My argument is not a no true scotsman argument, Dugin refers to socialism in (all forms) as one of the three ideologies that need to be superceded. Although he is sympathetic to a version of socialism without materialism, atheism and modernism, he calls that version of socialism National-bolshevism (which is already under the influences for 4PT). He also criticizes national-bolshevism, calling it insufficient because "deeply revised versions of
the anti-liberal ideologies of the past don't give us a final result".<ref>[https://somacles.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/alexander-dugin-fourth-political-theory.pdf#page=205 4PT: PAGE 205]</ref>

"Marxism had historically won. An arrogant contempt for the past, a
vulgar materialist interpretation of spiritual culture, economic centrism, a positive attitude toward the process of raising the social differential in societal systems, and the idea of class as the only historical subject – the “Fourth Political Theory” rejects all these aspects
of Marxism. However, without these components, Marxism (and,
more generally, socialism) ceases to be itself, and, consequently, it is
rendered harmless as a full-fledged ideology"<ref>[https://somacles.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/alexander-dugin-fourth-political-theory.pdf#page=43 4PT: PAGE 43]</ref>

"I believe that all previous anti-liberal ideologies (communism, socialism, and fascism) are no longer relevant. They tried
to fight liberal-capitalism and they failed."<ref>[https://somacles.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/alexander-dugin-fourth-political-theory.pdf#page=204 4PT: PAGE 204]</ref>

"“The century of America” signifies that in that period the ideology
of liberalism fought with its rivals (residual traditionalism, fascism,
socialism and communism) and smashed them to bits."<ref>[https://somacles.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/alexander-dugin-fourth-political-theory.pdf#page=187 4PT: PAGE 187]</ref>

The fourth political theory is very unique and in my opinion it feels weird to label this really unorthodox ideology as "socialist" in the broadest sense, it's confusing and misleading.

ok I see where you are coming from lets do the same as the reactionary socialist= Socialist(hated by almost everyone in it)-kamilazer

[[File:Abrokendoor.png]] [[User:Abrokendoor|Abrokendoor]] - The 4PT is still not socialist though, he formulated it after he stopped considering himself a nazbol. How can you still not understand that this page isn't about Dugin himself but about the ideology he founded in 2009?

Even focusing on the ideology he has an entire section covering his inspiration on the conservative revolution which is far more than the snippits of him. yes he goes and says those are outdated but says his ideology which is built off the conservative revolution and people like werner sombart and spengler(reactionary socialists). even on his website which is a forum for fourth political theory they celabrate socialists https://www.4pt.su/en/content/fourth-political-theory-and-socialism-latin-america. ill put it as many because there are peoplke like eskin within it-kamilazer

[[File:Abrokendoor.png]] [[User:Abrokendoor|Abrokendoor]] - First of all stop sidetracking the discussion. It's literally against the rules to discuss ideologies that aren't the 4PT in the 4PT discussion page. Second of all maybe you should read his chapter about the conservative revolution, where he doesn't say they're outdated, he actually says they're too modern and shouldn't have "let the buffoonery of Postmodernity take its course, let it dilute the definite paradigms, ego, superego, logos, let the rhizome, schizomasses and divided consciousness enter", even saying that what they advocate for is the opposite of Heidegger's views.
He also says that many german conservative revolution theorists participated in underground antifascist activity and helped jews to
rescue during WW2.<ref>[https://somacles.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/alexander-dugin-fourth-political-theory.pdf#page=135 4PT: PAGE 135]</ref><ref>[https://somacles.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/alexander-dugin-fourth-political-theory.pdf#page=132 4PT: PAGE 132]</ref>

its related to fourth theories relations so it completely within the rules. but fine ill have it be what it is now but without the removal of any of the socialists from the relations section( I am a contributor to the katehon website and arktos and they agree with me)
-kami